The Parliamentary debate on non-league football - 4th September 2014 (nicked from Hansard !!!)
4 Sep 2014 : Column 495
Non-league Football
Mr Speaker:
For the benefit of the House, I remind colleagues that after the
proposer has finished his speech there is a limit of five minutes on
each Back-Bench speech. There is also an informal hope or expectation
that the hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman)
will be able to confine his remarks to approximately 10 minutes, but I
am in his hands.
2.25 pm
Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con):
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I shall endeavour to comply with that informal guidance.
First,
may I thank all those who have supported this important debate on the
future of non-league football? I thank the Backbench Business Committee
and colleagues across the House today for taking part and for other work
they have done on football issues. I also thank the Select Committee on
Culture, Media and Sport; Supporters Direct, which has provided
tremendous additional help; and, above all, the Hereford United
Supporters Trust, the Hereford United Independent Supporters
Association, the dozens of Herefordians who have shared their feelings
and views with me, and the thousands more who have poured their passion
and commitment into the local game in Herefordshire over many years.
You
do not have to be a football supporter to know how important this game
is to the people of Great Britain. Every week during the season hundreds
of thousands of people turn out to watch premiership and football
league games, and millions more watch at home or catch up with the
highlights. Football is the lifeblood of many of our towns and cities:
it is what parents and kids do on a Saturday afternoon; and it is the
subject of endless banter and gossip during the week. But the
premiership and the football league are just the glamour at the top.
There is huge activity below the surface, in non-league and grass-roots
football. It is very easy to forget the significance of those parts of
the game, and the roles those clubs play in the community and their
importance in seeding the players and supporters of tomorrow.
That
carries with it a crucial point: football clubs are not purely private
organisations. They are not merely the private playthings of their
owners—they are public as well. What gives the clubs their life and
energy, even in the premiership, is the passion and love of their fans. I
am talking about supporters who turn out every week, who yell their
heads off at the match, who make the trek to away games and who buy the
season tickets and the merchandise. So it is entirely appropriate that
Parliament should take an interest in football and, specifically today,
in non-league football: how it is funded, regulated and managed,
balancing private interests with the public interest.
In
large part I have called this debate to focus public attention on what
has happened at Hereford United, which has been the result of a
disastrous catalogue of mismanagement and poor regulation. We will come
to that, but first I want to look to the good. In Herefordshire, despite
many competing sports and other outdoor activities, the high cost of
coaching and a shortage of access to good pitches, the non-league and
grass-roots game is flourishing. We have 42 grass-roots senior football
teams,
4 Sep 2014 : Column 496
some
150 junior teams, a schools league and midweek leisure games. Every
weekend during the season about 2,000 youngsters between the ages of
nine and 16 turn out in teams such as Ross Juniors in Ross-on-Wye and
Pegasus Juniors in Hereford. Over the summer some 78 girls took part in
girls week football, and I had the privilege of barbecuing several
hundredweight of sausages for the different nationalities’ teams in the
first-ever Herefordshire world cup in July.
The
issue of finance is a very important one, and I know colleagues will
have a lot to say about it—indeed, it deserves a separate debate in its
own right. But it is important to recognise the £1.4 million in Premier
League, Football Association and Government grants that has been given
to grass-roots football in Herefordshire since 2000 and the further
£240,000 that has been received from the Football Stadia Improvement
Fund, which is funded entirely by the Premier League. As always,
however, what really matters is community spirit and local organisation.
I pay tribute to Jim Lambert and the Herefordshire Football
Association, whose president is a distinguished former Member of this
House, my predecessor but one, Sir Colin Shepherd. I also pay a special
tribute to all those who play in these teams, to the families who
support them and to the volunteers who give up their time to referee
games and organise the league. Many of those people have supported and
nurtured football in Herefordshire for generations.
Much
of that good news has been cast into the shadows by events at Hereford
United, which have been a catastrophe for the club, for the city, for
the county and for Bulls fans everywhere. This debate has special
significance for Herefordians, because the terrible truth is that our
club, my club, Hereford United—the club of Ronnie Radford and what has
been described as the most famous goal in FA Cup history, against
Newcastle United; the goal that launched the career of John Motson—with
its famous tradition and international name, in the year of its 90th
anniversary, is likely to go into insolvency next Monday, with a court
judgment on its outstanding debts.
How
did that occur? How has a club that was solvent and competitive three
years ago suddenly found itself on the brink of annihilation? It is a
long and tortuous saga, which I will not recount here, but let me tell
the House that Hereford United stand as a case study in mismanagement
and poor regulation, of a kind all too prevalent in lower league and
non-league football.
In
2008-09 Hereford United were playing in league one against teams such
as Leicester City, now in the premier league, and Leeds United,
currently in the championship. They were relegated to league two in 2009
and to the football conference in 2012. That is when the financial
problems began to bite. Their share of rights income dropped from
£750,000 a year to a tiny £50,000. That was offset by a parachute
payment of £215,000, much less even than one year’s drop in rights
income, much of which will have been returned to clubs in the league and
to the FA itself.
The
2013-14 season was beset by financial crises but the fans rallied,
funds were raised to see off the threat of a series of winding-up
petitions and Hereford United secured an astonishing last-gasp 2-1
victory over Aldershot, thus narrowly managing to avoid relegation.
However,
4 Sep 2014 : Column 497
in June, Mr Thomas Agombar became the 57% owner of Hereford United. When he arrived at the club, he reassured staff that
“all
payments and wages due to themselves, players and football creditors
would be paid in full this week, subject to Conference status”.
Despite
those promises and the deadline for payment being extended three times,
Hereford United failed to pay their football creditors and failed to
post the bond as required under conference rules. They were then
expelled from the conference on 10 June 2014. That created, indeed
reinforced, the strong impression locally that Mr Agombar was less
interested in football than in taking over leases to the Edgar Street
ground and using them for commercial development. We now know he met
repeatedly with Herefordshire council, which to its credit has taken no
steps to allow him use of the leases.
There
was also immediate local concern about the suitability of Mr Agombar to
own a football club, not least because he has convictions for
conspiracy to steal and theft. Furthermore, two other directors appeared
likely to fail the FA’s owners and directors test. One, Mr Philip
Gambrill, was subject to an individual voluntary arrangement and
another, Mr Thomas Agombar Jr, had been banned by Essex County FA.
I
wrote to the Football Association in early June, asking it to consider
whether Mr Agombar met the requirements of the owners and directors fit
and proper test. However, perhaps because of the World cup, it was
difficult to get a rapid response from the FA, despite the answer being
vital to Hereford United’s survival. Indeed it was not until 4 August,
some six weeks later, that the FA finally confirmed to me that Mr
Agombar Sr had failed the test, along with Mr Agombar Jr and Mr
Gambrill. Even then, despite my repeated requests and warning of the
reputational risks to the FA itself, the FA refused publicly to announce
the results of the test. It pleaded confidentiality, although the club
was even then in negotiations over a company voluntary agreement, with
Mr Gambrill’s name on the CVA document. It took until 12 August for news
that Mr Agombar and those two other directors had failed the test to be
made public. I must tell the House that the FA has still not made a
statement on the matter. Not only that: the Southern League accepted
Hereford United as a member in mid-June, despite the fact that it is
supposed to abide by FA rules and that Mr Agombar had not passed, and as
it proved would never pass, the fit and proper test.
This
whole fiasco raises very serious issues about governance and the need
for greater transparency; about funding and financial fair play; about
the negative effects of the football creditors rule; and about the
importance of supporters’ trusts. I would encourage the Select Committee
on Culture, Media and Sport to revisit in the next Parliament its 2011
report on football governance to reconsider some of the issues.
Today
I want to focus on the FA’s fit and proper test and how that was
administered. How could it be right for the FA to refuse to publish the
results, which were clearly material to a proceeding in court? The
creditors should have been immediately informed, so that they could
judge the CVA in that light. Some of those were football creditors, to
whom the FA arguably owed a special duty of care. I can see no reason
why the FA should not be able to make public in a timely fashion whether
an individual submitted the relevant form for
4 Sep 2014 : Column 498
the
owners and directors test; and whether, if they have, they passed the
test. After all, this is the practice in the parallel case of financial
services and, although that industry is no poster child for good
regulation—goodness knows that is true—its approach has been proven to
deter some very dodgy individuals from seeking senior positions.
Moreover,
how can people who buy shares in football clubs be able to register
their directorship with Companies House when they have not passed the
test? Surely people who would be likely to fail the test should not be
allowed even to get to that stage. The FA, Her Majesty’s Revenue and
Customs and Companies House should work much more closely to identify
potentially unsuitable club shareholders, owners and directors as soon
as they appear.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab):
I have listened closely to the hon. Gentleman’s excellent speech.
Wrexham has had similar experiences, and the club has gone through a
very difficult period. I am interested in what he has said, and he has
come to the nub of the matter. Regulation must precede ownership. The
key decision on whether someone is a fit and proper person must be made
by the FA before it sanctions any transfer in ownership. For the life of
me, I cannot understand why that does not happen.
Jesse Norman:
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. He makes a proposal
that has been scouted before but needs to be examined more closely.
There is a tie-in to a wider question: should there be a licensing
regime for clubs? That is worth exploring.
Bill Wiggin (North Herefordshire) (Con):
My hon. Friend is doing a fantastic job in laying out this sad story of
mismanagement. Does he agree that the FA’s failure lets down not just
football but the people we all represent, the people who go to watch
football every week, the people who really care? It is they who have
been most bitterly let down. Some of them work for the club and will not
receive the money they are owed.
Jesse Norman:
As my hon. Friend knows, it is likely that many of the creditors,
including football creditors, at Hereford United will never be paid. He
raises a serious issue. I am not by any means critical of the FA as
such; I think that many of the things it does are good. There is a
specific issue in relation to the owners and directors test that I want
to focus on. Serious concerns exist in that regard.
Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab):
The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful case. Mr Peter Kneale, company
secretary of Prescot Cables in my constituency, has contacted me to make
three suggestions. I would be interested in the hon. Gentleman’s
response to them. The first is that admission to non-league matches
below conference level should be exempt from VAT. The second is that
non-league clubs could automatically be given exemption from the
business rate. The third is that the Government look at giving greater
flexibility to the community amateur sports clubs scheme to help clubs.
Does he think, as I do, that those are sensible suggestions?
Jesse Norman:
That is a formidable array of questions. May I respond briefly? As a
member of the Treasury Committee, I am a bit leery of exemptions from
VAT
4 Sep 2014 : Column 499
because
I know how hard it is to recover those funds elsewhere and the
precedent that they tend to set. On the issue of business rates, this is
a local issue and councils should be encouraged to look closely at
questions as they specifically arise. On the final issue, anything that
the Government can do to support and enhance community ownership of
supporter-led clubs would be valuable. I thank the right hon. Gentleman
for making that point.
As
I have said, the FA, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and Companies
House should work much more closely to identify potentially unsuitable
club shareholders, owners and directors as soon as they appear.
Incredible as it sounds, as we debate today, Mr Andrew Lonsdale, a
long-time associate of Mr Agombar, is the current chairman of Hereford
United, despite a criminal conviction in 2008 and despite being
disqualified at Companies House from 2006 to 2012. That raises in the
starkest possible form the question, how on earth have the football
authorities allowed such a person to be a club chairman?
Will
the Minister write to the FA asking it to demand answers to those
questions, and in particular to demand early completion—or
pre-registration, as the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas)
mentioned—by potential owners and directors of the fit and proper test
and rapid publication thereafter, so that we all know who has put up for
it and who has passed or failed?
Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab):
As a Newcastle and a Gateshead fan, I remember those ventures in the
past with some pain, I am afraid to say. Because of the lack of
oversight and transparency that the hon. Gentleman is in essence saying
the FA has demonstrated, does he not think the FA itself is guilty of
what it often accuses others of doing: bringing the game into disrepute
by its lack of oversight of football management?
Jesse Norman
rose—
Mr Speaker:
Order. I think there was an expectation or hope that we can start the
last debate no later than 4 o’clock. We are all enjoying the informative
and learned speech of the hon. Member for Hereford and South
Herefordshire and he will continue it until he has concluded, but I
should just point out that there are 11 hon. Members who also wish to
contribute.
Jesse Norman:
I am very grateful to you, Mr Speaker, and I am about to wind up, but I
am also grateful for the intervention and I can only sympathise with the
hon. Gentleman’s pain, still felt in many parts of Newcastle, as a
result of that great goal. I think there is a degree of truth in his
question. It is a balanced judgment, and if I may, I will leave it
there.
Will
the Minister write to the Football Association and other relevant
authorities, requesting that they investigate the rules which may have
been contravened by Hereford United and its owners and directors
recently, and in particular how Hereford United was allowed entry into
the Southern League without Mr Agombar passing the owner and directors
test and despite its failure to pay its football creditors, and whether
Mr Andrew Lonsdale’s continued role as club chairman is in contravention
of existing rules?
4 Sep 2014 : Column 500
Hereford
United’s motto is “Our greatest glory lies not in never having fallen,
but in rising when we fall.” The situation there has been a tragedy for
everyone who loves the club, but there might be some small comfort for
fans if it now leads to genuine and sustained improvements in the
non-league game.
Several hon. Members
rose—
Mr Speaker:
Order. The five-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches starts now.
2.42 pm
John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab):
I am sure the FA is listening in and I have a few suggestions for it.
The first point is that it cannot fill Wembley—it could not last night
and Mr Roy Hodgson says it cannot be filled for all the England
qualifiers—yet I have a load of kids in my constituency who have never
been to a major sporting event of any kind. I am prepared to provide the
buses and raise the money to enable them to do that, if the FA will
give me the tickets, and I will fill Wembley on my own, every time, with
kids from Bassetlaw, including kids who play for Worksop Town. I am
prepared to do that for all the England qualifiers, and, indeed, any
other major sporting event that needs some noise, passion and support.
We
have 600 kids who play for Worksop Town alone, and those kids—boys and
girls—say to me, “I’ll wear the shirt of my town.” Well, if we think the
situation is bad in Hereford, I can say that the situation at Worksop
Town is worse, because we cannot even go insolvent. At Worksop Town, the
owner announced just before the start of the football season that he
was putting no more money in. The directors—including the chairman, whom
he appointed—immediately put the club into football abeyance; they
said, “We’re not going to play any more, anywhere, ever.” There were
some quick interventions, but they also wrote a letter withdrawing from
the league. So without the fans or anyone else having a say, Worksop
Town goes down a league, and when I go to the FA, it says, “Well, it’s
too late; the letter’s gone in.” I say, “Well, what’s the fear?” and the
FA says, “The owner won’t put any money in. The owner owns all the
shares in the club.”
So
I look at the club accounts. They show that Worksop Town’s assets are
worth £669, because the previous owner somehow managed to get rid of the
ground, so the club owns no ground; it owns nothing despite having been
there since 1861. Yet with a turnover of £101,000, the new owner is
apparently owed half a million pounds. He owns the club, however; he
took it over. He decided, I think, that he was going to put some money
in, and it is down in the accounts as administrative expenses. Last
year, on a turnover of £101,000, there were admin expenses of £223,000,
and the same the year before. That is down to an unnamed creditor, and I
think that is Mr Jason Clark, the owner. I think he decided, “I’ll put
money in, but I’ll put it in as a loan,” and then he said, “I’m not
putting any more in, but I want someone to buy the club off me.” But the
club has no assets—yet there are all these kids wanting to play, and go
up and play for the full team.
Some
are doing so, because we have managed to do a few little deals on the
side, using the supporters trust. We have sorted a bit out. We have got
support from the
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community.
Mr Lee Westwood has put in some sponsorship, and Mr Bruce Dickinson of
Iron Maiden has put his hand in his pocket as a Worksop lad, and Mr
Graham Taylor, former England manager, and many supporters have put in,
but they are having to put into the supporters trust because they cannot
put into the club, because the club owes money, because the owner has
decided to put in money that no one asked him to lend but he put it in
as a loan.
What
can the FA do about that? The answer is, at the moment, it can do
nothing. It ought to be feasible in that situation for us to set up a
new club, with the players and the managers and the supporters in
support, and for the FA to recognise that club, and for that club to
play in the same league. I am sure then, with helpful council support
and support from private business and the rest—there is plenty of good
will—we can build a new ground as we built the old one with the help of
the fans. I am confident of that. Therefore, those 600 kids can aspire
again, and we can have what we want in the town, which is everyone being
proud of the name of the club and all those kids and people in the
community being able to play. That is the kind of change that is needed
in football.
If
a party wants an idea for its manifesto, I suggest that in football the
youth side and the stadium should be separated out from the
semi-professional side. We should not be giving Government money or any
other money if that can be siphoned off by an owner.
Ian Mearns:
In future where clubs find themselves without a ground to play in, if
the stadium still exists might we be able to find some mechanism for
getting the supporters trust to be allowed to recognise and register the
ground and stadium as an asset of community value?
John Mann:
Absolutely, and we have got a community interest company and if we had a
stadium, it would be in the CIC—and when we have a stadium, it will be
in. I am sure I can get a stadium built; I am confident of that, but it
will be owned by a CIC, and who will play at it? The owner will have a
veto, because the FA will let the owner have a veto. We could set up an
alternative club, but it has to start right down at the bottom. That is
nonsense.
These
rules will be simple to sort out, and we should use the leverage of any
money that goes in—state money of whatever form, whether grant money or
Football Foundation money via the Premier League and the rest of them,
or whether section 106 agreements, which is one way in which we can
develop a stadium with relative ease in Worksop over the next couple of
years. Those guarantees need to be there, but the FA rules need to
ensure that if we do this, we can ring fence it. That should be for all
clubs, and, by the way, this is not just about the FA, because if we are
dealing with the FA, I can get to the FA. But if we are dealing with
the blazers running these leagues, with the power to decide who is in
and who is out, we cannot even get to find out who they are, never mind
get to meet them.
That
is the problem with football. It is a great challenge, but I believe
there are solutions there, and obvious ones if people are prepared to
act. The whole country would be behind that kind of action.
4 Sep 2014 : Column 502
2.48 pm
Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con):
This is an incredibly important debate, because it is really important
that non-league football should survive. I congratulate my hon. Friend
the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on
securing the debate. My knowledge of non-league football goes back to
about 1973, when I started watching Buxton, and I wear my Buxton
football club tie today with pride. I remember when Buxton won the
Cheshire league, and I was a member of the committee that ran the club
in the early 1990s. I used to travel to home and away matches.
The
thing about non-league football is that it binds communities; it binds
towns and areas together. When we used to go to watch Buxton, we used to
travel up to Morecambe in the north-west. I can see the hon. Member for
Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) in his place, and I can also
remember many a famous victory at Bower Fold. I remember an auspicious
3-2 win in which I still reckon that the guys behind the goal got the
penalty that won the match, but that is another story.
It
was about the community. We used to go to matches, and we used to go
into the bar beforehand and talk to the opposing supporters. We used to
sit there and chew the fat about the good of non-league football and
about how our team was better and their team was worse. It was a day out
and it bound the community together. I remember the non-league football
annual guide coming out at the beginning of each year, and I would buy
my copy and tick off the grounds that I had been to. And people might
think I am sad, but I always used to have season ticket No. 1 at Buxton.
That is the kind of thing that non-league football does to people.
I
recently went with my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin
Tomlinson)—who I believe is wearing his Swindon Supermarine tie today—to
watch that team play, and I was very much reminded of Buxton. I shall
also talk about Glossop North End in a moment. This is about local
people working together for the good of the community and the good of
the club. We see people rolling the ground and marking the pitch. Some
of the white lines might not be very straight, but the work gets done,
and it is done by local volunteers.
I
look at non-league football today and I worry. I remember the day when
Goole Town came to play Buxton, and they had Tony Currie playing for
them. He looked like he had had a few more curries by then, but it was
still Tony Currie. Even then, he had fantastic ball control. I think he
still has—I do not know if he is watching this.
Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con):
I am sure that Tony Currie will be very grateful to my hon. Friend for
that. He was an example of a player coming down from the higher leagues
to play in non-league football. I remember watching Goole Town, freezing
my toes off, as a youngster. We had a player called Tony Galvin—does my
hon. Friend remember him?—who was sold to Tottenham Hotspur for £5,000.
That was a huge amount of money for Goole Town. On a more serious
point, does my hon. Friend feel that the obsession on the part of the
larger clubs to import players from abroad denies that revenue to
non-league clubs and denies their players the opportunity to get into
the professional league?
4 Sep 2014 : Column 503
Andrew Bingham:
My hon. Friend makes a good point. He talks about freezing his toes
off. He should try watching Buxton in February, playing on the highest
football ground in England. He would freeze more than his toes off, I
can assure him. The point he makes is absolutely right. We sold Ally
Pickering to Rotherham—I think the fee was about £16,000—and Rotherham
then sold him on to Coventry City, for which Buxton received a fee. That
brought extra capital into the club. My hon. Friend is right: we now
have what Alan Sugar used to call the Carlos Kickaballs coming into the
premier league, plugging the gap through which footballers used to go up
the pyramid, as well as coming down it. I am afraid that the days of
old professionals playing at non-league football clubs are gone, and
that is very sad.
Jesse Norman:
I wonder, in view of the comments about my hon. Friend’s toes, whether
we are in fact re-enacting Monty Python’s “Four Yorkshiremen” sketch.
Andrew Bingham:
I can assure my hon. Friend that it was pure luxury!
We
also had cup runs. I mentioned Glossop North End, who got to the final
of the FA Vase in 2009. That gripped the town of Glossop. There was a
train that went from Glossop, with seven or nine carriages. We got on
the train at Glossop and—for those whose geography is pretty good—we got
to Manchester after about two hours. Then we had to come all the way
down to Wembley. The sense of occasion on that train was fantastic. At
the time, I was a member of High Peak borough council. It was the first
time I had been to the new Wembley stadium and, regrettably, there were
not quite as many people there as there were last night, although we
were not far short. Afterwards, we decided to organise an open-top bus
parade for the team, even though they had not won the trophy. I remember
that the streets were lined with people, and there was a fantastic
community spirit. We just do not get that with the glitz and glory of
the premier league.
For
those who cannot sleep tonight, if they read my profile on any website
they will see that I prefer football at non-league level because it is
the glory game, the people’s game—call it what you will. That is what
football is about. Whether it be Glossop North End or Buxton or New
Mills in my constituency, it is all about the proper game of football.
The premier league has its place and it does a great job, but I prefer
non-league football because of what it does for communities. We hear a
lot about local activism and people helping each other. My hon. Friend
the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) has just walked into the
Chamber; he has been to Buxton with me, and I am sure he remembers it
with fondness.
Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)
indicated dissent.
Andrew Bingham:
My hon. Friend shakes his head, but it is the people’s game, the glory
game. It is about the lads and the dads. It does not cost a father and
his son £100 to go and watch a match. They can go to a match and have
their Bovril and their pie and peas at half time. Anyone who watched
non-league football knew that the best pies were at Frickley Athletic,
and that Horwich RMI was the place to go for hotpot. We knew all those
things; that was what football was all about.
4 Sep 2014 : Column 504
That
is why it is crucial that non-league football should survive. As the
hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) said, it gives young lads who want
to play football a chance to rise to their level, and they might make
it. They might be another Ally Pickering who goes on to play first
division or premier league football. They can play football at their
level, and they can play it for love. People can also watch non-league
football for love, and they can afford to do so.
The
contrast with premiership football is huge. We hear of premiership
footballers earning £300,000 a week, but we need to get more money down
to the non-league clubs to help support them. I heard the earlier
comments about VAT and community amateur sports clubs. In my days on the
committee in Buxton, I remember having to wrestle with the vagaries of
the tax system and all the rest of it. Many people who are involved in
non-league football, particularly lower down the pyramid, are doing it
for the love of the game. If we can make it easier for them to run these
clubs, it is better for the communities and better for the game.
I
know which non-leagues teams I have watched. I can pretty much name the
Cheshire league winning side of 1973—apart from a couple whom I am not
sure about. It is in the blood; people find it stays with them. They
still look for their local team’s results. It is different with
premiership footballers. I notice when Chelsea are doing well because
there are a lot of Chelsea shirts about. I am a Manchester City fan and
have been for a long time. There are a lot more City fans now than there
were when they were playing in the old third division. Non-league
football always stays with its fans, which is why its future is
incredibly important.
Before
I sit down, let me just mention football for people of a more senior
age. The Minister will no doubt say this, but only this week we had a
walking football match here in London between the Glossop Gentlemen and
the Parliamentarians. Again, it is something that gets people involved
in the game and pulls communities together. Non-league football is
incredibly important and we must do all we can to support it both for us
and our constituents. I hope, in a few years’ time, to be able to stand
up and remind the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde how, once again,
Buxton have given Stalybridge Celtic a good thrashing.
2.56 pm
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab):
Let me congratulate the hon. Member for Hereford and South
Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on his thoughtful and passionate speech,
especially with regard to the club that he supports. It is great that we
are having this debate, because non-league football is important to our
country and our communities—indeed the point about the importance of
community involvement has been made. Of course non-league football gives
so much pleasure around the country to hundreds of thousands, possibly
millions, of people.
I
am fortunate because Halton has two clubs—Runcorn Linnets FC and
Runcorn Town—both of which are doing very well and are in the premier
division of the North West Counties League. Runcorn Linnets were formed
in 2006 by fans of what was then the defunct Runcorn football club. I
can remember the joy on the faces of the fans and the chairman, Derek
Greenwood, on the day it was reformed.
4 Sep 2014 : Column 505
Non-league
football has existed in Runcorn since 1918. I am pleased to say that
Runcorn Linnets FC now have a brand-new stadium, which was the result of
a combination of efforts from the supporters, the chairman and his
committee, the borough council, which played a pivotal role, and the
local Members of Parliament who supported it. I was there on the opening
day to see the inaugural match. Up to 1,000 people actually watched the
game that day. We are really proud to have two teams in that league.
Runcorn
Town is the other team— I am trying to be as even-handed as possible
here, as we have two teams in Halton—and they were formed in 1967 under
the name of Mond Rangers. They were a well-known and famous football
club in the area. Ahead of the 2005-06 season, they changed their name
to Runcorn Town and improved their facilities. Their club site is at the
popular Pavilions Club in Runcorn. Again, the supporters play a pivotal
role in its success, and I am pleased that the club has done so well
since it became Runcorn Town.
Currently,
both clubs are in the top half of the league, with Runcorn Linnets at
the top and Runcorn Town seventh. The matches between them are always
interesting and competitive, often bringing in crowds of more than 500
plus. There is good support in the town for both clubs, and I am really
proud to see them doing so well. Those clubs play an important role in
our communities, and will continue to go from strength to strength. I
hope to see more and more local people going along to support them.
It
is difficult for such clubs, because Halton is between Manchester and
Liverpool so we have four of the biggest clubs in the country,
Liverpool, Everton, Manchester United and Manchester City, which means
that it is always difficult to attract supporters. However, the clubs in
Halton are doing that and I think that big clubs should do more to
support the smaller clubs through marketing and helping them to get more
supporters. It is always a struggle for the clubs that are sandwiched
between these massive world-famous clubs and we must take note of that.
As
I come from Widnes, on the other side the river—I am very proud to
represent both Widnes and Runcorn —I should mention briefly that
although it is a rugby league town, of course, football has been played
there at an amateur level for many years and is very popular. In fact, a
Widnes club has even been formed as part of the Widnes Vikings sports
brand. I hope that it does well, too.
I
am very proud of the two Runcorn clubs in particular. Football is such
an important part of the community in Halton and many young people and
adults play the game. As we know, it is one of the most popular sports
around. I have been written to by Dave Bettley of Runcorn Linnets FC,
who is the trust secretary. He raises some important points about the
role of supporters’ trusts, which, as we all know, are very important,
about the tax and revenue system—we know about that from our earlier
discussions about VAT exemptions, business rates and what help can be
given when clubs get into trouble—about the football creditors rule,
about the financial viability of football clubs and about the
transparency of club ownership, which has been mentioned by a number of
hon. Members today.
4 Sep 2014 : Column 506
This
is been an important debate and I am glad to have been able to raise
the issues and explain the importance of the clubs in my community. I am
sure the debate will add to our understanding.
3.1 pm
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con):
The main focus of my contribution to the debate will be to highlight
the importance of a football club to the local community, where it can
achieve much more than just entertaining the fans every couple of weeks.
This debate shows clearly that just because a team is not in the
football league does not mean that it cannot contribute greatly to the
local community. I am a Grimsby Town supporter, and they are temporarily
residing in the conference—but, as I say, that is only temporary.
Grimsby
are unusual in that they always play away from home, as their ground is
in Cleethorpes. I share with thousands of others concern about what
happens at Blundell Park each week. It is not just important to football
supporters; the local club is part of the local identity. It is tribal,
although we might still support other teams. When I was a schoolboy,
Tottenham were the team and I can still reel off the team that won the
double in 1961—Brown, Baker, Henry, and so on.
My
close association with the Mariners, as they are known, began long
before my father started taking me to the match. Indeed, my first home
at 11 Fuller street in Cleethorpes was about 200 yards from the goal at
the Osmond stand at the Cleethorpes end, so I could hear the cheers and
groans from the terraces. Long before my father got home and—in those
pre-local radio days—before “Out of the Blue”, the famous theme tune for
“Sports Report”, came out of the ether to herald the first reading of
the classified football results, I would know by the cheers who had won.
It
is a matter of regret that my first public appearance after my election
in May 2010 was at the game against Burton Albion, which resulted in
Grimsby Town dropping out of the football league and into the
conference. That followed a proud history in which the Mariners managed
to reach fifth in the old first division in the 1930s and appearances at
Wembley at which they won such august trophies as the Auto Windscreens
trophy. We had a number of semi-final appearances, one of which was
against Wolves. At that game on 25 March 1939, we set a ground
attendance record at Old Trafford that, I am pleased to say, still
stands; for the aficionados, it was 76,962. Sadly, because of an injury
to our goalkeeper we let Wolves slip five goals past us but, other than
that, I am sure that it was a great day out for those who were fortunate
enough to be there.
Like
the majority of clubs at different levels, Grimsby’s survival has
depended over the years on a number of generous individuals but surely
the important thing is that they keep faith with their local fans.
Grimsby is their club. The club’s role in the community is of major
significance. The Grimsby Town sports and education trust is a
registered charity and among the projects it delivers is one with the
National Citizen Service. I was fortunate, last Thursday evening, to be a
speaker and to present certificates at this year’s graduation ceremony.
The mayor of North East Lincolnshire, another of the speakers, drew
attention to the fact that we often hear the promotion of the big
society, but the NCS not only
4 Sep 2014 : Column 507
seeks
to address a range of social problems concerning young people, but
influences their attitudes to civil and civic society. The young people
last Thursday evening were a credit to their families and the local
community. Could that have happened without the involvement of the
football club? Of course, but the club is an attraction, particularly
for youngsters, especially when players become involved. Credit should
go to Shaun Pearson, the player-ambassador, who was present last
Thursday evening.
It
is an added bonus to have a league club, but it is important that what
goes on in the community around the club is recognised. Grimsby Town
tell me about an anomaly, which I shall shortly be writing to the
Minister about. My understanding is that there is currently an automatic
core payment to the community departments of football clubs, to the
tune of £30,000. At the time Grimsby left the football league, that was
£24,000, with a 50% reduction for the first year only. That parachute
payment is then lost, so that the funding to community departments
ceases immediately the club leaves the football league. There are funds
available for specific projects, but it does suggest a degree of
injustice when a community department, the work of which can have a
significant off-field positive impact on its parent club’s catchment
area, is penalised—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo):
Order.
3.6 pm
Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op):
I am delighted to be able to speak in today’s debate, coming as it does
just two days before non-league day. I add my tribute to the hon.
Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) for securing
the debate and for his speech. I am proud to have three non-league teams
in my constituency—a number that very few Members can boast. I hope to
be able to raise some of their concerns today, but I also want to
provide some background to them, as they are all proud clubs whose story
deserves to be told.
First
there is Hyde FC, formerly known as Hyde United. Hyde are fresh from a
two-year spell at non-league football’s highest level, after winning the
conference north in 2012, playing the type of attractive, pass-and-move
football that the World cup-winning Spain side would have been proud
of. However, it is fair to say that times have become slightly tougher
recently, with only one win in our last 48 games. It could be worse,
though, as the team hold the record for the highest defeat in an English
competitive match—a 26-0 thrashing by Preston North End way back in
1887. It is worth remembering, though, that Preston were probably the
best side in the world at that time. The club have also recently become
something of a Twitter sensation, with almost 45,000 followers, which
has helped them crowdfund £10,000 for much-needed work on their social
club. I am sure that good times are again just around the corner.
There
is also Stalybridge Celtic, an ex-league club back in the 1920s, who
play at the impressive and idyllic Bower Fold stadium, nestled in the
foothills of the Pennines, with a stand named after one of my
predecessors, Lord Pendry. That is also where I took my daughter to
watch her first ever live game of football—an important
4 Sep 2014 : Column 508
moment in any child’s life, I am sure Members will agree. She calls Bower Fold the Stalybridge Wembley, which I rather like.
Finally,
there is Mossley FC, slightly lower down the football pyramid than Hyde
and Stalybridge, but up and coming, with their ground, Seel Park,
offering a truly stunning backdrop, and under the astute stewardship of
Lloyd Morrison and non-league legend Peter Band.
Today
I want to raise several issues on behalf of those clubs.
Unsurprisingly, money is a real cause for concern at that level, with
many clubs constantly struggling to survive. We heard at the start of
the debate about the plight of Hereford United and the problems that
they have been facing; unfortunately, we hear that story all too often
in non-league football.
Given
that we have just seen a transfer window where in excess of £800
million was spent, it is fair to say that non-league clubs feel
forgotten, that the money does not trickle down to the grass roots of
the game, and that those at the top all too often come across as being
too focused on themselves. That was no more apparent than in the
ludicrous proposals for the A and B teams of premier league clubs to
play in the lower leagues—something that would kill non-league football.
I should have thought that would have been obvious to anyone who was
aware of the lower leagues. Clubs are going bust at that level, while
premier league clubs pay millions of pounds in wages and rake in
lucrative sponsorship deals from around the world. A player can be on in
excess of £100,000—perhaps £200,000 or £300,000—a week in wages, while
the local non-league club down the road is struggling to survive and
relies on a dedicated army of volunteers to get by. How can the balance
between those two things be right?
Another
issue is travelling, especially by northern teams, particularly at
steps 1 and 2 of the league. Travelling to mid-week matches on the other
side of the country can be a logistical and financial nightmare for
semi-professional teams; greater consideration is needed. Travelling
distances can also hinder clubs’ progression, as the costs involved put
them off taking promotion, even if they have earned it, as often happens
in the northern league.
As
we have heard today, non-league clubs are also important parts of their
local community. That is certainly true of the teams in my
constituency. Stalybridge Celtic, for example, have a dedicated
community development officer to ensure that this is at the forefront of
their priorities. That work is often underestimated. I think the true
worth of every non-league football club to the community is vast and,
frankly, cannot be measured. More recognition is due to non-league clubs
for that work.
People
asked me to raise other issues, including the possibility of a salary
cap such as operates in the football league, which would be linked to a
percentage of turnover.
I
am delighted that we have this debate today. I hope that non-league day
on Saturday is a success around the country, not least with victories
for Hyde, Stalybridge Celtic and Mossley. I also hope that the
footballing authorities pay more attention to the plight of non-league
clubs, and at the very least recognise the valuable work they do in
their communities. Non-league football may not be seen as the glamorous
end of football, but it is real football, it is the grass roots and it
keeps the game alive. Without it, football would lose its soul.
4 Sep 2014 : Column 509
3.11 pm
Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con):
I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and
South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on bringing this important debate to
the House. Clearly a great number of hon. Members on both sides are
enthusiastic football supporters and know a great deal about the
subject. I am not one of them. I have to confess that I am not the most
enthusiastic football supporter in the country, and I think that any
constituent who sees an MP trying to “ham it up” will see through them
straight away, so I do not pretend that I am the world’s leading expert.
Instead, I rely on my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin
Tomlinson), a son of Kidderminster who keeps me in touch with the
Kidderminster Harriers, the leading team in my constituency, alongside
Bewdley Town football club and Stourport Swifts—I too have three
non-league football clubs in my constituency.
In
the years I have been involved in Wyre Forest as a parliamentary
candidate and as the local MP, I has been my sad duty—albeit one I
relish each time it comes about—to work with successive chairmen to
raise funds to try to save the Kidderminster Harriers football club. It
is, I am afraid, one of the great problems of the smaller, lower league
football clubs that most of them, despite enormous support from
supporters and fans who give personal contributions, are, broadly
speaking, ultimately supported by the patronage of private individuals.
Most recently, the Kidderminster Harriers were got on to a sound
financial footing through the incredibly hard work done by one such
individual, Mark Serrell, and his wife, and through quite substantial
personal financial sacrifice.
As
we heard from the previous speaker, there is an awful lot of money in
the broader football economy—probably enough money to keep the whole
thing going, were it not for the huge amount of leakage at the top end,
where a great deal of money seeps out of the football economy into the
pockets of star players. They are probably worth it, but at the end of
the day even an investment banker might blush at £300,000 a week in
salary. The sport needs the non-league clubs to bring on the players of
the future, and that is why more should be done to support them. At the
moment, because of the complex interconnectedness in the football
economy, people such as Mark Serrell of the Kidderminster Harriers are,
in effect, subsidising Wayne Rooney’s salary.
It
is important to recognise the huge contribution that clubs such as the
Harriers make to their communities, and I will go through in detail some
of the stuff they do. Kidderminster Harriers run a number of community
and charitable activities. The club’s community scheme has football
courses for children aged between five and 14 during the school
holidays—an incredibly important time when they are not being
supervised. They are held not just in Kidderminster, but across the
entire county and in neighbouring south Shropshire and south
Staffordshire. Malvern, Worcester, Bromsgrove, Droitwich, Cleobury
Mortimer and Kinver—all benefit from the Kidderminster Harriers.
The
football academy, which is run in association with Birmingham
Metropolitan college, holds trials for players aged between 16 and 18.
Importantly, this enables potential Harriers stars of the future to
combine football
4 Sep 2014 : Column 510
training
with a range of full-time courses at Birmingham Metropolitan college.
We all know the importance of having a plan B, especially when one is in
sport.
The
Harriers have recently been recruiting teenagers to a five-a-side
indoor football team that will play against larger league clubs in the
midlands. Aggborough stadium occasionally hosts charity fun days. The
club’s official charity partner for this season is Prostate Cancer UK.
It linked up with the charity at the start of the new campaign in
August, with the players posing in special “Men United” shirts during
the traditional team picture. The use of Aggborough stadium is also
available for other events. It is right that any organisation with
assets to sweat should do that as much as possible, but it is
encouraging that Kidderminster Harriers lets the community use its
stadium. On 27 August, Aggborough hosted an international match between
England Under-17s and Czech Republic Under-17s.
We
have heard that the “fit and proper” test is incredibly important, and a
great deal has been said about that. Two issues are worth looking at.
First, there is inadequate distribution of money throughout the entire
football economy, and the Football Association needs to deal with that. I
call on the Minister to use her substantial powers of persuasion to
help it to come to the right decision and conclusion.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con):
My hon. Friend raises a very important point. The Football Association
has a surplus of about £80 million per annum, which basically comes from
the England team. That money is given 50% to the grass roots and 50% to
the professional game. There is absolutely no reason why it should not
all go to the grass roots. Front Benchers on both sides of the House
should be applying pressure on that. It would result in an additional
£40 million for Hereford, Worksop, Kidderminster and Warrington.
Mark Garnier:
I entirely agree. It is absolutely right that we should be pushing as
much money as we possibly can down to the non-league football clubs.
Secondly,
as we have heard, the Government can probably do a little more to help
these football clubs directly. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member
for Hereford and South Herefordshire that we should not go round handing
out VAT breaks to them. However, given the great amount of charitable
and community activity going on within some of them, there is a case to
be made for having charitable or quasi-charitable status for the element
of the club that is giving back to the community. The Government could
do a great deal of work in looking to provide such help so that clubs
benefit, as other charities do, from a reduction in business rates.
Furthermore, there could be help for the businesses outside in the
community that support the clubs through donations whereby they get tax
breaks on those donations.
This
has been a very interesting debate. I am learning a great deal about
football, having, as I said, come from a very low base to start with. It
is important that we support these clubs. Many football supporters
recognise that they are fantastic, enthusiastic centres of the
community, but people like me who are not supporters, but work with our
communities, also recognise absolutely that the work they do is
incredibly cohesive in a town. Even if one hates football, one has to
recognise the value of the game in supporting the community.
4 Sep 2014 : Column 511
3.18 pm
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab):
I want to follow on from what the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark
Garnier) said. We are debating three issues: first, his point about
resources; secondly, regulation, particularly with regard to the
openness and transparency of the operational boards; and thirdly, the
right to community representation on the boards of football clubs.
I
am honorary vice-president of Hayes & Yeading United. I was
honorary vice-president of Hayes football club, as it was formerly, and I
have supported it for 35 years. Hayes has been a successful club over
the years. We produced Cyrille Regis, Les Ferdinand and Jason Roberts.
In fact, the chair of the FA, Greg Dyke, is a Hayes boy. We had a
successful track record but, like many non-league clubs, we ran into
financial difficulties because, as is particularly the case for a London
non-league club, the pull of the premiership and other teams is
enormous, and maintaining a supporter base is extremely difficult. We
tried to reduce costs by finding alternative sites and so on. We looked
to sell our ground and to purchase from the local council, Hillingdon,
the football stadium within half a mile of our club site that it was
going to close and sell off, but it refused to sell it to us. It was
right next to a local school. We were looking to take over the ground,
set up a football academy, work with the local school and act as a
community resource, but Hillingdon council was too greedy and refused to
sell us the site. In fact, it refused to enter into a partnership.
Hayes
sold their ground and merged with Yeading, and I became the honorary
president of Hayes & Yeading United. Unfortunately, however, even
the income from the sale of the ground was not enough to cover their
debts. We were looking to move to the Yeading site, but there was not
sufficient money to finish off the work we had done on that ground, so
we are now nomads. We played at Woking’s ground last year, and I spent
more time on the M25 than actually watching matches. We are now at
Maidenhead and are desperately trying to raise funds to finish off the
Yeading site.
We
should pay tribute to all the volunteers out there who have kept
non-league football going—they work so hard. We have all come here with
our traumas and we have all gone through various experiences where not
everything has been completely open and transparent, but people work
hard to help these clubs survive.
Hayes
produced two England players—Cyrille Regis and Les Ferdinand—as the
result of a youth policy. They worked with youngsters, gave them basic
training and the opportunity to play—getting that opportunity is
difficult for many at semi-professional level—and brought on grass-roots
football, which I think produced good national teams in the past. The
reason our national team has problems at the moment is that a lot of
grass-roots football has been undermined. The cost of pitches in my area
is pricing out local teams. The local non-league clubs represent not
just the grass roots but the heart of football and its development. That
is why they need more support.
I
agree with the hon. Member for Wyre Forest: the economy is wrong. There
needs to be a redistribution of wealth to grass-roots football and an
honest discussion with the FA and the premiership about a proper levy
4 Sep 2014 : Column 512
beyond what currently exists, to enable more grass-roots investment in terms of not only pitches but revenue support.
Secondly,
Hereford is a good example of the problems we have had. Only a few
years ago, Hayes came fifth in the conference. Then we were relegated to
conference south, and we got relegated last year but survived only
because other clubs went into administration, which is was an horrendous
experience. We need openness and transparency on how club boards
operate, so that people can be aware of the financial situation and how
it is being managed.
Thirdly,
the hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman)
mentioned the supporters trust. If a grant is given from the FA or the
premiership, it should be linked to automatic supporter representation
on boards, because that will gain not just openness and transparency but
community control of the clubs.
There
are simple solutions to tackle some of the key issues facing non-league
football. I agree with everybody else: this is about not just football
but community spirit. It is at the heart of community life in many of
our constituencies.
Several hon. Members
rose—
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo):
Order. We are very short of time for this debate, which needs to finish
at 4 o’clock and to accommodate all those who still wish to participate
I am going to reduce the time limit for Back-Bench speeches to four
minutes. The Minister and the shadow Minister have also agreed to reduce
their time, so we are sharing the burden. Each Back Bencher has four
minutes from now, and I hope that interventions will be less
frequent—although I am sure they will be relevant—in order to help us
stay on time.
3.23 pm
Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con):
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire
(Jesse Norman) for securing this excellent debate. I remember visiting
that great club Hereford United in January 1990 for an FA cup
fourth-round match in front of 13,770 people. I also remember going to a
football match in 1975 in which Tony Currie played for Sheffield
United; on that day they lost 5-1 in front of 61,000 people.
Weaver
Vale is blessed with several football clubs. The hon. Member for Halton
(Derek Twigg) mentioned Runcorn Linnets, which is an excellent example
of a community coming together to start a new football club. It is very
well run and very well supported. We also have Witton Albion, which was
formed in 1887 and is a very popular club. We also have a new club
called 1874 Northwich FC, which was formed by supporters of Northwich
Victoria football club, which, unfortunately, does not play in the town
anymore. Indeed, it no longer plays in the county. It suffered a similar
fate to Hereford United.
As
the father of two young boys, and as a touchline dad, my proudest
moment at the weekend is seeing my sons put on their football boots and
run on to the pitch, although I am a little concerned that my younger
son’s nickname is “Cruncher Evans”. I want to talk briefly
4 Sep 2014 : Column 513
about
the recent decline in the number of regular players. There are now
250,000 fewer participants in grass-roots football than there were only a
year ago. The figures show that there is a real need to engage with
grass-roots football to help support organisations, supporters and
players. In my experience, it comes down to mums and dads organising the
participation of younger players.
Having
said that, I am proud that the Government have invested £80 million in
football facilities over the past year via Sport England and are working
jointly with the FA and the premier league. The Government are also
committing £100 million for the Football Foundation to continue
delivering higher-quality facilities. I remember visiting the excellent
facilities in the constituency of the hon. Member for Stalybridge and
Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds)—all I can say is that we in Cheshire are very
envious. In addition, Sport England will be investing £1.6 million to
create a grass-roots city of football, an innovative trial looking at
new ways of encouraging people to play the game, including casual and
small-sided matches.
I
want to pay tribute to Sport Cheshire and to Cheshire FA. Sport
Cheshire’s excellent chief executive, Anne Boyd, works tirelessly to
encourage young people to take up sport, not just football. I am
impressed by the number of girls who are taking up the sport.
In
conclusion, the Government can play a role, but I believe that
communities also need to come together. It is down to mums and dads,
working with local authorities. There is still an awful lot to do, but I
believe that, by working together, we can secure an optimistic future
for grass-roots and non-league football.
3.27 pm
Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab):
Like many other Members, I am saddened by the struggles faced by
non-league football. I am particularly saddened by the loss of Great
Harwood Town FC, which no longer exists. That is symptomatic of the
troubles faced by many non-league football clubs and of the decline in
participation. There is a challenge. Although most of today’s debate has
focused on the semi-professional level, I would like to make three
quick points about the challenges faced by grass-roots football.
First,
there is a huge challenge to increase the level of participation. When I
played, my local combination had four divisions, but now it has two.
Participation is severely hampered by the number of people who are
attracted to premier league football or other forms of entertainment.
Those clubs are essentially the feeders for the semi-professional clubs
that are picked for Sunday leagues and out of the combination. If
non-league football at the semi-professional level is to survive and
thrive, the tier below is just as important.
Secondly,
I think that participation is about health, community and all the other
aspects that Members have mentioned, which is why we should be
encouraging people to get involved. There is a big challenge facing
senior football at the grass-roots level. The amount of senior football
played is threadbare. In constituencies like mine, it is really
important that people engage in some form of recreational activity, and
football is a great participatory sport. I think that people should be
more involved, particularly those who are getting on in
4 Sep 2014 : Column 514
years
and might think that they are past their prime. There should still be a
game out there for them, but sadly, there often is not.
Thirdly,
I want to mention the state of recreation grounds. We need to look at
how grass-roots football is funded, right down at a basic level. With
the demise of teams and the reduction in the number of players, some of
our recreation grounds are becoming tired and unused, and they need
investment. I believe that there are many people out there who would
respond to that need and who would like to see clubs thrive. Whinney
Hill football club has taken over a recreation ground and it now has
several teams, including junior teams and female teams. It has invested
in the recreation ground, partly through public funding and grants and
partly through its own initiative. That club and that recreation ground
are thriving. We should look at that model and put more investment into
our recreation grounds, rather than letting them wither away as unused
pieces of land that are not particularly attractive.
3.30 pm
Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con):
I join other colleagues in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for
Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on securing this
debate.
I
am saddened by the plight of Hereford United. I grew up and went to
school in Herefordshire. Nearly 30 years ago, in January 1985, I
remember seeing the Hereford United of Chris Price and Stewart Phillips
draw 1-1 with the Arsenal of Charlie Nicholas, Kenny Sansom and Viv
Anderson. In 1990, the famous Manchester United FA cup run, which
brought Alex Ferguson his first trophy, very nearly ended in the fourth
round at Hereford United on what Alex Ferguson rightly called in his
autobiography a “pudding of a pitch”. Even the bull that is
traditionally brought out for cup ties before the kick-off at Hereford
United was glad to get off the pitch. The romance of the FA cup—the
romance of non-league and league football—is what makes football in this
country so special. To see Hereford United go through what it has gone
through is a tragedy born out of poor management and poor oversight by
the Football Association and other football bodies.
Non-league
football in my constituency has had its ups and downs. Folkestone
Invicta has had recent financial problems. Those have been resolved. I
pay tribute to the work of the former chairman, Mark Jenner, and his
team in stabilising the club’s finances. I have met officials at the
club to talk about what they could do. They now have the club on a
secure footing and are clearing the debts. I am grateful to the Football
Association, which had a meeting with the club to discuss how it can
access funds to carry out essential ground maintenance. It has entered
into a proper lease agreement with Shepway district council and the
future of the club looks much more sound than it did a year or two ago.
That
club had a bonus when something happened that again shows the romance
of non-league football. A young player, Johan ter Horst, was brought up
in Folkestone and Hythe and started playing football on Saturday
mornings with the juniors at Folkestone. He started in the under-13s
team and then, at the end of last season, was sold to Hull City in the
premier league. The club will get a financial reward directly from the
transfer
4 Sep 2014 : Column 515
and,
depending on how the young player’s career develops in the premier
league, may get more money in the future. That is an example of how the
trickle-down effect can work.
For
many football clubs, sustaining themselves is the greatest challenge
they face. Other Members have asked whether more financial support could
be given through tax breaks to community sports clubs, just as such
opportunities exist for amateur sporting clubs in the community.
Although non-league football clubs pay some of their players part-time
wages, they are very low and the costs of running the club are often
very high. They are basically not-for-profit organisations that do a
great deal not only to entertain the people who watch the clubs play,
but to support grass-roots sport in their communities. There should be
some special recognition of that. If there could be incentives for the
community ownership of clubs, such as a more sound financial model or
tax breaks, we should champion them.
In
the brief amount of time that is available, I want to pick up on what
my hon. Friend said about the fit and proper person test. It is failing
time and time again. It is failing because that is what football wants
to happen. It is within the power of football to devise a more rigorous
test and impose it more rigorously, but it consistently fails to do so.
Football will change only through external pressure that it cannot
resist; it never changes voluntarily. I was proud to serve on the
Culture, Media and Sport Committee in 2011 when we produced a report
that made a series of recommendations on football governance. Most of
those have been ignored by football bodies and more has to be done to
put pressure on them. The hon. Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham)
secured a debate in the House earlier this week on the plight of
Coventry City. Again, that is a failure of ownership. There has to be
intervention by the Football Association to impose a proper owners and
directors test and to sanction clubs and owners when they fail to
comply. I agree with my hon. Friend that that information should be made
available to the creditors of the club and the fans.
3.34 pm
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con):
It is a pleasure to contribute to this debate. I want to raise the
plight of Salisbury City football club, the oldest and biggest club in
my constituency, which is in dire straits, and its experience over the
past few months.
I
have two suggested improvements in governance that could help. The
first is about prize money. I believe that there needs to be a
reallocation of prize money from the FA cup to the FA trophy and FA
vase. It is ludicrous that at the moment, small clubs can find
themselves in the third or fourth round of those competitions, yet the
cost of travel to an away match outweighs the money that they will gain
from winning.
The
second suggestion is about the fit and proper person test, which is not
fit for purpose and needs to change urgently. As I speak, the ownership
of Salisbury City football club is in dispute in the courts and the
club’s very existence is threatened. Its fans are bereft and feel badly
let down. It is a far cry from just a few months ago, when I saw
Salisbury win 3-1 in the last
4 Sep 2014 : Column 516
home
match of the season to finish in 11th place in the conference south.
The then chairman decided that he could not continue to look after the
club and devised a plan with a local businessman, Mark Winter, to
transfer ownership. Mr Winter put up £70,000, but he needed a business
partner. He was introduced to Mr Outail Medi Nader Touzar, who appeared
to have a great deal of enthusiasm for the club as an investor. He had
previously been presented to Reading and had been publicly linked to a
consortium bidding to take over Crystal Palace.
Mr
Touzar’s credentials seemed sound. He was presented as a potential
chairman and was waved through the owners and directors test without a
murmur of dissent. However, the reality was that this man was not fit to
be involved in the running of a football club. He said that he would
bring huge wealth to the club—promises witnessed by several people but
unfortunately never put in writing or subjected to official scrutiny. It
was no more than a handshake behind closed doors. His cash did not
arrive, and he started behaving rather oddly. He was sleeping in the
stadium, removing season ticket cash from the safe and making outlandish
claims about foreign signings at a time when the club was barred from
registering players. He claimed to have sold shares to other foreign
investors, but to this day he declines to name them. Rumours therefore
started that he had not had any money in the first place. Mr Winter, the
original fan-investor, sought to replace Mr Touzar with another
consortium of people who were prepared to invest. However, when they
went to the authorities they were met with resistance at every moment,
because technically Mr Touzar was still the owner.
Salisbury’s
experience highlights the fact that the current fit and proper person
test is a rubber-stamping exercise that makes a mockery of the FA. It
freely admits that it is a tick-box exercise, not a subjective, full
assessment of whether a prospective owner would be good for football. I
feel that what is needed is a Disclosure and Barring Service-type check
specifically aimed at potential football directors. The verification of
claims and means, the taking up of references from previous business
associates, proof of assets and basic oversight of business plans is
surely not too much to ask.
At
every level, football requires more careful financial handling and
astute management. My impression is that the FA and the regulatory
bodies turn a blind eye because fans want to see their club continue to
operate, but my club has nowhere to play this season. Mr Touzar is still
not being dealt with, and it is outrageous.
3.38 pm
Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con):
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South
Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on securing the debate. He told a tale of
woe about local football, as did the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John
Mann). It saddened me to hear both their stories.
It
is with some sadness that I mention that three members of my staff are
Baggies fans. When I put my name down for the debate, they said, “Well,
you don’t seem to have much prospect at Wolves this season.” It has been
a tough few years, but this season has started off quite well. This
weekend will be the celebration of the 125th anniversary of the building
of Molineux stadium, so I thought a contribution to the debate would be
apt.
4 Sep 2014 : Column 517
I
want to highlight two non-league football teams whose work at
grass-roots level in Wolverhampton and the black country I have
seen—Punjabi Wolves and Sporting Khalsa. I have seen much of the
fabulous work that they do by affiliating with local gurdwaras and the
Sikh community in general.
In
the three minutes I have left I cannot wholly encapsulate the full
spirit of Punjabi Wolves, but I think that this small anecdote, which is
an old story of Punjab United—the initial club from which Punjabi
Wolves were formed—will probably encapsulate the general spirit. I am
told this story is true as I have spoken to people who were apparently
on the coach at the time.
The
team was playing a match down in Southall and I think they had narrowly
squeaked a 3-2 victory. They were celebrating with the opposite side in
a pub in Southall, and the evening went on and it was getting quite
late—I think they had reached the 11th hour. One member of the team
said, “Look, do we really want to go all the way back to Wolverhampton?”
At which point another player suggested, “Don’t worry, my auntie lives
round the corner. There is no problem, we can go round and knock on the
door.” This was the early 1970s, and times were very different.
At
about 11.30 pm, the team knocked on the door. They got auntie out of
bed, and she woke up and made about 15 burley young blokes roti,
chapatti, curries and all sorts of things. They had a good
night—festivities apparently went on until 3 am. They woke up at about 7
o’clock as some of the boys had to get back to work. They were chatting
among themselves, and the individual whom I know came downstairs,
joined them, and they had a hearty breakfast. At that point auntie
walked in and he looked at her and she looked at him. He said, “Boys, we
need to drink up fairly quickly.” They said, “Why?”, and he said,
“Because it’s not my auntie’s house.” They then had to go round the
corner and drive all the way back, but I think that spirit of
hospitality really encapsulates the whole well-meaningness of Punjabi
Wolves—I am not sure whether that spirit is Punjabi or comes from
Wolves, but it is a far gone time.
I
digress. On a more serious point, much has been made about the fit and
proper person test for football management, but I occasionally still
play football with a couple of my friends—we play five-a-side whenever
we can—and we often talk about football as it is one thing I really
enjoy. To be candid to fellow Members, sometimes when we stand up and
ask a decent question at Prime Minister’s questions, other Members will
come up to us and say, “Well done,” but that is as nothing to having a
good match of five-a-side and scoring a goal. Afterwards, we have a pint
with our friends and talk about it, and of course we embellish it, but
it is a wonderful feeling.
When
we compare that feeling with the news we have had this week—some of the
boys I play with are United fans, and I have been speaking to them—when
players are getting £300,000 a week, it is a far cry from the class of
’92 when Butt, Giggs, Beckham, Neville and Scholes all came together.
Could we really have that in today’s modern football game? It seems an
unlikely dream.
The
hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) mentioned young
players coming forward at grass-roots level. My son plays football at
grass-roots
4 Sep 2014 : Column 518
level.
He is 17 and invariably plays on the right. When he gets the ball, the
advice given to him is invariably, “Hoof it up. Kick it forward”, but he
wants to take time with the ball and enjoy it. Without investment in
the grounds where people can enjoy possession and play football, we will
not cement the foundation for the future of our English team.
3.42 pm
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab):
This has been an informative and enjoyable debate. Although he has not
spoken, I am pleased to see the hon. and learned Member for North East
Hertfordshire (Sir Oliver Heald) in his place, because he and I made our
own contributions to non-league football back in the early ‘80s when we
ran Pembroke House youth club football team. His administration skills
are legendary.
Sir Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con):
The hon. Gentleman was, of course, a fantastic coach, and we were the
best team down the Old Kent road. Does he agree that what youth football
does for they youngsters who play for the teams—instilling of a bit of
discipline and team spirit and so on—improves their lives? Those
youngsters did not end up being Giggs or anyone like that, but they have
all gone on to very satisfactory futures.
Clive Efford:
They have indeed, and I am still in touch with some of them. Youth
football certainly makes a significant contribution, as many hon.
Members have said in this debate. I congratulate the hon. Member for
Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman). This is a timely debate
because it comes a couple of days before national non-league day. In
this period the premier league and many football league clubs are not
playing; it is an opportunity for people to support non-league sides,
which we encourage them to do.
National
non-league day has had a significant impact on attendance over the past
couple of years. Vanarama, which—surprisingly enough—sells vans, has
said that it will contribute 10p for every fan who attends a conference
game this week. If the number gets above 50,000, it will double its
£10,000 contribution to Prostate Cancer UK. If that does not make people
go out and support their non-league side, I do not know what will.
Sadly, I cannot accept the invitation from Cray Valley in my own
constituency this week because I will be in central London speaking to
and welcoming the Darlo Mums, who are marching down from Jarrow to save
our NHS. However, I wish Cray Valley all the best against Rochester on
Saturday.
The
hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire raised some important
issues and was right to highlight the problems at Hereford United. He
reminded us of the spirit of Ronnie Radford and they way that John
Motson burst on to our television screens in that famous victory against
Newcastle. That such a club should be brought to its knees and face
extinction because of poor management is a tragedy. The hon. Gentleman
also highlighted how the Football Association and the leagues have got
to get their act together in deciding who is a fit and proper person to
run a club. My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) made the
important point that there should be registration before ownership. We
need to sharpen up that process because too many
4 Sep 2014 : Column 519
people are gaining ownership of clubs before it is completed, and that is having devastating consequences for football clubs.
Many
hon. Members spoke about the importance of football in their local
communities—so many that in this short time I cannot mention everyone.
I, too, think it important that the premier league and the FA better
support football at the lower levels. When £835 million can be spent in
the transfer market, but clubs such as Salisbury City, Hereford and
others can nearly go out of existence over relatively tiny sums of
money, there is something seriously wrong at the heart of our game and
we need to do more.
I
do not think we need another division below the football league. When
resources and finances are so thinly spread at that level, it does not
make sense to add another division and spread them even more thinly. The
document put forward by the FA and Greg Dyke recommends strategic loan
agreements. I would like those examined in more detail to see if more
formal arrangements can be built up between lower league clubs and clubs
that enjoy the riches at the higher levels so that investment can be
made not just in players on loan, but in facilities, sending coaches
down, training coaches and advising clubs on physio, diet and all the
sorts of things that improve the game. With such investment at the lower
level, we could increase the pool of talent there, and if we can
increase the number of players enjoying the best facilities at the lower
end of our national game, perhaps those diamonds in the rough will come
through and benefit the elite game.
Many
hon. Members have spoken about how community spirit is touched by
football. There are few public bodies, organisations or businesses that
touch our communities like football does. It has been at the forefront
of tackling many social issues, such as racism and many forms of
prejudice. I would challenge anyone to find another sport that has had a
greater impact than football. It has had its problems, and still has
problems that need to be addressed, but it makes a huge contribution and
a big difference to our communities. It is absolutely vital. The hon.
and learned Member for North East Hertfordshire said that football can
change the lives of young people, and we have all seen fine examples of
that in our communities.
Many
hon. Members have mentioned the impact football has had in their
constituencies. I wish I could have gone into that in more detail. The
hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) came up with the
ultimate anecdote of community spirit, while the hon. Member for Weaver
Vale (Graham Evans) referred to being a touchline dad and to “Cruncher
Evans”. Perhaps we should bear a thought for the players who might come
across “Cruncher” in future, as well as wishing him the best for his
future footballing career.
Football
is vital to our local communities. We have a very rich sport, but
unfortunately not enough of the resources at the highest level of the
game reach down to the lower levels. Only a very small amount of that
money getting down to the non-league level could make a huge difference
not just to those clubs, but to the contribution they make to their
local communities and to the production of fine footballers for future
generations.
4 Sep 2014 : Column 520
I
hope that the people who operate at the top of the game are listening
to today’s debate, because hon. Members have done a fine job in
representing football fans and bringing attention to the issues that
need to be addressed if we are to save our game for the future.
3.50 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant):
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire
(Jesse Norman) for securing the debate. The recent developments at
Hereford and other non-league clubs make it timely to consider the
challenges they face and the support offered now and in the future. The
financial sustainability of football clubs, especially in non-league
football, is an important topic that appears to be at the root of many
of the issues clubs face today. I know that the Football Association’s
governance and regulation divisions are aware of the pressures clubs are
under, and they continue to look at what improvements could be made to
support clubs directly or indirectly and to assess how regulation and
the structures around it can be improved.
Over
recent years, many changes have been made to non-league football and
the regulatory environment in which clubs operate. While the rules might
seem quite interventionist to some, the encouragement of regular
reporting has certainly seen clubs at this level generally becoming more
financially stable.
Many
hon. Members have spoken with great passion about their local clubs and
their loyal fans. I want to respond to as many points and questions put
to me as possible. I have little time, so I am going to have to gallop
through, but I shall do my best.
My
hon. Friends the Members for Hereford and South Herefordshire and for
Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier), the hon. Member for Halton (Derek Twigg) and
others spoke about close working relationships, the effectiveness of
the owners and directors test and transparency, while the football
creditors rule was also raised. I can confirm that there are ongoing
concerns about relationships, the test and the efficacy of the rules. I
would be happy to ask the FA, which I meet on a regular basis and am
seeing this week, to review and look again at the owners and directors
test to see whether any sharpening improvements could be made. I would
also be happy to see whether any additional powers would help, such as
those conferred on Ofcom, as mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for
Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) in a debate earlier this week
about Coventry City football club.
On
the narrowing or abolition of the football creditors rule, there is no
plan to legislate. The industry is taking the steps that need to be
made. I hope that the financial fair play rules in the leagues and the
financial sustainability requirements imposed in non-league football
will reduce the dependency on the creditors rule, which is in any case
used relatively infrequently.
The
hon. Members for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) and for
Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds), who I know has had to leave,
spoke about financial support from the premier and other leagues
trickling down. My view is that the redistribution of income is a matter
for the premier league and the FA. It is not a matter for the
Government, but we would, of
4 Sep 2014 : Column 521
course, support and encourage any measure that strengthens the financial sustainability of clubs at all levels.
My
hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) spoke of
Grimsby Town, its place in the local community and its role as a local
partner for delivering the National Citizen Service, which sounds very
interesting indeed. He has asked me on a number of occasions to visit
him in Cleethorpes and perhaps watch a Grimsby Town game, and I will
certainly look into that. I am delighted that Grimsby Town are playing
such a key role in the community, which is further evidence of how much
more these clubs provide, well beyond football.
My
hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen) also referred to the
owners and directors test as an inadequate rubber-stamping exercise that
is making a mockery of the FA—I am sure it is listening. Clearly,
Salisbury City have had a very difficult summer, and I understand his
frustration and that of supporters. However, the ODT is not a
rubber-stamping exercise; it does set out disqualification criteria that
prevent certain individuals from taking control of football clubs, and I
assure him and the House that not all prospective owners are able to
pass that test. As I have said, I will ask the FA to review the working
of the ODT and see whether more can be done to protect clubs from these
various challenges. He also referred to money for the FA Vase and FA
Trophy competitions. Again, I repeat that redistribution is not a matter
for government; it is a matter for the Football League, the Premier
League and the FA, but the Government would certainly support any
measure to improve the financial sustainability of football.
My
hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) and the right
hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) raised the issue of charitable or
quasi-charitable status for non-league clubs. I can tell them that we
want sports to get as much benefit as they possibly can, so that they
can drive participation and thriving community sport. We are working
with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and with sports on reviewing
community amateur sports clubs, and I will of course make sure that the
issue of non-league football clubs is raised.
Several hon. Members
rose—
Mrs Grant:
I will give way later if I have any time left, but I must cover a
couple of matters first. The hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) spoke
with great passion about falling attendances at games. I cannot promise
that the FA will take him up on his offer in relation to Wembley, but,
as other hon. Members have mentioned, we do have a non-league day coming
up this weekend. I encourage all hon. Members to visit their local club
and enjoy everything that is on offer.
Lastly, I wish to discuss one potentially strong safeguard, which has been mentioned by many Members: better
4 Sep 2014 : Column 522
engagement
with supporters. There are many good examples of supporters engaging
with their local clubs, some of which can be found at AFC Wimbledon,
Brentford and Exeter City, but there is more to do. With that in mind, I
have accepted Supporters Direct’s proposal for an expert group of
supporters, which will include representatives from across football. I
hope that the group will examine, among other things, the barriers to
supporter ownership and what more can be done to increase engagement
with supporters.
David Mowat
rose—
Mrs Grant:
I really am out of time, because I want to leave a few minutes for my
hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire to speak.
In
conclusion, I do not want us to lose sight of the exciting
opportunities for non-league football to generate and maintain both
interest and participation in the sport as a whole. It is with that in
mind that I will continue to work with the football authorities on
providing a supportive environment for them to prosper in the future.
3.59 pm
Jesse Norman:
I would like to thank all colleagues from across the House for taking
part in a cracking debate that has shown the House of Commons at its
best; it has been full of wisdom, insight, passion and good humour. I
know that the Minister has not failed to note the enormous passion and
the strong feelings expressed about the ODT, and I am glad that she has
committed to asking the FA to review it.
To
bookend my earlier remarks about Hereford United, we have one shining
example of a great community football club in Hereford: Westfields
football club, founded 48 years ago, after England won the World cup. It
was the grassiest of grass-roots clubs then, run by a team of people,
one of whom was a 16-year-old goalkeeper and is now the chief executive,
Andrew Morris. I wish we had more such clubs.
The
football pyramid does not work at the moment. We know that. In the
early 1990s, when Hereford United were last at risk, Graham Turner, the
revered former manager, wrote to all members of the premiership asking
them to send a side to help to boost Hereford United’s gate. Only one
premiership manager replied: Alex Ferguson, who sent a team including
Ryan Giggs. That made a huge difference. That is what we should be
seeing a lot more of across the premier league today.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered the future of non-league football.
